Results 1 to 5 of 5

Thread: Jorge LOLnares

  1. #1 Jorge LOLnares 
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    477
    This guy just got annihilated by a distinctly shop-soiled (despite his relatively tender age) Pablo Cesar Cano, a guy who was only ever a fringe contender at his best. Can we finally give up the mystique and hype around this Chavez-worshipping socialist now? After his DeMarco/Thompson humiliation phase, he was inexplicably allowed to rebuild his myth on the back of a run whose highlights were wins over a trio of also-ran Brit names in Mitchell, Crolla and Campbell (all of whom gave him competitive fights to varying degrees) and a win over Mercito frigging Gesta (of all the toothless 'where are they now?' trivia fodder).

    Sky's gushing over him in the moments leading up to this evening's bout was as vomit-inducing as the gushing of his online cult.

    Weight and age are no excuse. Listen to his fervent disciples, and they'll tell you that this guy is equipped with the kind of skillset that makes nonsense of size differentials (especially when faced with fringe-level competition like Cano). He's also a well preserved 33, appears to look after himself and, due to the generally mediocre level of his competition over the years, hasn't shipped a ton of punishment in his career outside of his prior four defeats (two of which ended very early).

    He just isn't that good, face it. He was overrated pre-DeMarco/Thompson, and he became massively overrated all over again on the back of a win-streak of minimal world level substance. Talented, but ultimately a notably flawed B fighter on his best night and nothing more. He isn't the first guy to be possessed of physical gifts and turn out to be a distinctly average contender at the world level, and he won't be the last. We might as well revive Adrien Broner's absurd hype train, too, if we're going to continue blowing smoke up Linares' butt.


    And guys said this chap would trouble Garcia? Laughable.


    Not to mention that ridiculous top knot, for Christ's sake.


    Give it up already.
    Last edited by navigator; 01-19-2019 at 07:22 AM.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  2. #2  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    477
    Additionally,

    This completely fabricated 'master boxer' reputation needs to be torched. Contrary to Sky's asinine gibberings tonight, Linares is not the guy you want to sit a young kid in front of if you want to 'show him how it's done'. If anything, you sit him in front of a much less athletically gifted fighter who uses reading comprehension, timing and a rounded set of solid fundamentals to get to grips with an opponent. A master boxer doesn't get walked through in less than two rounds thrice in his career, by less than magnificent fighters each time, if he possesses any kind of advanced boxing intellect relative to world level. His frailty isn't his only flaw by any means. He should have been able to limit the success guys like Thompson and Cano were having early on, but he was utterly clueless.

    Very talented, yes. Greatly skilled, no. Master boxer, absolutely no. B fighter on his best night.
    Last edited by navigator; 01-19-2019 at 05:45 AM.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  3. #3  
    Damn the hate is strong here. You cannot suddenly dismiss him like that..

    Linares is a 3 weight world champion, very talented and has been very successful.

    He just gave the P4P number 1 Lomachenko a decent fight. Before the Loma fight I had him Linares 10th P4P. He was on a 14 fight winning run, unbeaten for 6 years

    Lomachenko usually makes very good fighters look like bums - Rigo, Walters. But Linares gave him a good fight.

    'also ran Brit Names' Nope- Crolla was a world champion and in the form of his life. Luke Campbell - highly skilled Olympic Gold medalist who's almost certain to become a world champion. Kevin Mitchell quality very talented fighter.

    It's very surprising his loss tonight. But he's never had a good chin.

    But when you've been a pro for so long , sometimes after a tough fight fighters can suddenly look shot. I recall the Jamie Moore - Ryan Rhodes fight of the year as one example of many, Moore looked good that night but in his very next fight he was completely done and suddenly retired.

    You say his age is no excuse because he's 33, but he's been a pro for 17 years! he's got miles on the clock now.

    Maybe the Loma fight has taken loads out of him, maybe he's too small for light welterweight, or maybe he just started slow and got caught and can come back and anihilate Cano

    I disagree I think he is greatly skilled and an excellent boxer.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #4  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    477
    Quote Originally Posted by NavigatorIsADumbBum View Post
    You cannot suddenly dismiss him like that..
    Well, it's not such a sudden dismissal. I've been a Linares sceptic since his hyperbole train first left the station (several derailments ago). It's not that he's trash, it's that I never saw a reason to believe he would prove anything more than a decent enough titleholder.


    Quote Originally Posted by NavigatorIsADumbBum View Post
    Linares is a 3 weight world champion
    I accept Linares as a three-weight world champion about as much as I accept Adrien Broner as a four-weight world champion. And even stodgy meat and potatoes Broner managed to beat Tony DeMarco.

    Linares never wrested a title from a quality titleholder, instead picking off vacant belts against the faded, the fringe and the fruit of a low-hanging variety. A kudos to him for finally putting a run of defenses together at 135, after negligible reigns at 126 and 130, but, as I suggested in a prior post, he didn't exactly face a murderers' row during his stint as the WBC's lightweight champ (I'll come back to that).

    Belts and 'multi-division champ' status, accomplishments on paper, just don't mean as much as they used to, due to the proliferation of titles and the dilution of championship status. We have to examine the level of competition.

    So, putting title bouts aside and just focusing on quality competition, the most prestigous names in Linares' win column were various shades of faded when he fought them (Chavez and Juarez were all washed up, while Larios was on the downside).

    As for his L column, Linares has fallen to guys that no elite pro would fall to, much less in such summarily brutal circumstances. There's no getting around that.


    Quote Originally Posted by NavigatorIsADumbBum View Post
    very talented and has been very successful.
    He is surely talented, as I previously asserted. He also fights with heart. He's by no means a bum. But his success is relative. He's been successful compared to, say, a Ryan Rhodes, a Sergey Rabchenko, a Matt Hatton. But in the pantheon of world level titleholders, he's really just another guy, nothing like a leading light.


    Quote Originally Posted by NavigatorIsADumbBum View Post
    He just gave the P4P number 1 Lomachenko a decent fight.
    That's as may be. I personally thought Lomachenko fairly controlled matters, aside from a blip in the middle rounds, and did so despite an apparent injury.


    Quote Originally Posted by NavigatorIsADumbBum View Post
    Before the Loma fight I had him Linares 10th P4P. He was on a 14 fight winning run, unbeaten for 6 years
    Some folks thought he was worthy of creeping in around the back end of the P4P rankings (in which lingering sentiment no doubt played a hand), but he was no P4P lock. And that winning streak lacks names of world level distinction anywhere near their primes.


    Quote Originally Posted by NavigatorIsADumbBum View Post
    Lomachenko usually makes very good fighters look like bums - Rigo, Walters. But Linares gave him a good fight.
    Walters' name was built up on crushing the undersized pair of Vic and Nonito, both of whom had pushed the limits of their musculature way past the optimal point by the time they hit 126. He was good enough to push some smaller guys around, but he was never proven to be very good – the eye test was unconvincing and the accomplishments were thin. He was a guy who made some noise for a very brief spell, then fizzled out. More sizzle than steak. Lomachenko did, indeed, tease the bum out of Walters, after 7 rounds of showing him up for the limited also-ran he was.

    Rigo is another I never drank the Kool-Aid on – always felt the pundits were too quick to anoint him – although I do accept that he was a legitimate handful in his optimum weightclass. That one played out like a routine very good big man vs. very good little man affair. Rigo was losing rounds and never looked like turning it around, but he didn't resemble a bum until he quit like one.

    With that said, I don't think it weighs too heavily in Linares' defense that he was able to last into the late rounds with a guy like Loma, since Loma is on the smaller side of lightweight, doesn't bring a huge punch with him and was apparently hampered by a shoulder injury after the second round. As I said a few passages back, given the circumstances, I thought Loma beat the naturally bigger man handily enough to suggest a seperation in level between the pair and didn't think the contest was overall as close-run a thing as the knockdown made it appear (GBP's political influence will have balanced those official scorecards some). The contest about met my expectation that either of Loma or Garcia would defeat him soundly.

    And however competitive Linares made it could just be a reflection on how far Lomachenko can go. Stratospheric striving for mesospheric, perhaps, but not thermospheric.


    Quote Originally Posted by NavigatorIsADumbBum View Post
    'also ran Brit Names' Nope- Crolla was a world champion and in the form of his life. Luke Campbell - highly skilled Olympic Gold medalist who's almost certain to become a world champion. Kevin Mitchell quality very talented fighter.
    You may be surprised to learn that I have regard for all three fighters mentioned.

    I like Crolla for what he is. A good guy who made the most of the limited talent he was blessed with. A paisan (http://www.alrightposters.com/crolla/). A guy who gave it his all and overachieved, surmounting numerous setbacks along the way by dint of perserverance and modest improvement. I am the last to begrudge Crolla any of what he earned, but an objective analysis of his career reveals a fringe level contender who became a paper titlist due to a combination of proliferating sanctioning body titles and decidedly mediocre competition (relative to world level). And he gave Linares a very good go the first time around, which doesn't reflect well on the latter's claim to P4P status. You have to love Crolla for his doggedness and dedication. But the upshot was a fighter who sat somewhere between C and B level on his best nights.

    I spread the word about Luke while he was still an amateur and cheered him through his Olympic campaign (one of my best friends was a Campbell sparring partner for years – I lived in the Hull area and worked out at St. Paul's at the time, attended all the gym's early pro cards after it turned over from a strictly amateur gym). I'm very aware of who he is and what his accomplishments are. As a pro, he still has a window of opportunity to shore up the weaknesses in his game and kick on from the level he's shown thus far, so one might say that he can't be dismissed as an also-ran just yet. But at this point in time, he hasn't accomplished much of note on the world stage. That's just how things are at present. We'll see how things play out for him. Avenging the Mendy loss was a promising result at the shallower end of world contention.

    Mitchell really was a very talented guy with a ton of potential, and one of my favorites among British prospects of his era. It always confounded me that Frank Warren ploughed such an excess of energy into Khan (who was always bound to get big for his boots and leave him at some point), to the point of neglecting to properly develop other quality young guns in his stable. I'd even argue that Warren's slide from grace as the nation's #1 promoter has its origins in this error of judgement. In any case, Mitchell always seemed brittle as a lightweight and left it much too late to get serious about his career, pissing a lot of that aforementioned promise down the drain before smartening up his act. At world class, he struggled and proved little. He was flattened in the early going by Katsidis (he was under-groomed going into that one, IMO) and then again by Burns (no excuses this time) and tragically wrecked by Barroso later in his career. His best wins came against fringe guys in Prescott, Murray and Estrada. As soon as he stepped up from there, he fell short. I can't vaunt him as a world class scalp, even as much as I was impressed by his natural talent and the silky maneuvers of his finer rounds of boxing (a number of which came against Linares, which, again, doesn't reflect so well on the Venezuelan's claim to elite status).

    Kev did win me 600 as an underdog against an unbeaten John Murray (I got him at 6/1 for the T/KO), which is a fond memory I'll keep of him.


    Quote Originally Posted by NavigatorIsADumbBum View Post
    It's very surprising his loss tonight.
    That's just the thing. It's not all that surprising, by my lights. And I doubt I'd be the only one whose jaw wasn't on the floor.
    Last edited by navigator; 08-15-2019 at 11:15 PM.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #5  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    477
    Continued from above...


    Quote Originally Posted by NavigatorIsADumbBum View Post
    But he's never had a good chin.
    Quote Originally Posted by NavigatorIsADumbBum View Post
    You say his age is no excuse because he's 33, but he's been a pro for 17 years! he's got miles on the clock now.
    Linares has a streak of vulnerability, this is true, but his chin isn't as lacking as his boxing intellect. He's one of those guys, and there have been many over the years, who is more reliant on athleticism than craft and reading comprehension. The rave reviews always come in early with these kinds of fighters, they often get high on their own press, then they come dramatically unstuck. Judah and Khan are other examples of what I term the 'fatally flawed boxer-athlete', although it's entirely fair to say that both of those chaps have had much better careers than Linares.

    Likewise his age. Yeah, he's long in the tooth, been around a while, but he lives the life, hasn't taken insane amounts of damage, is pretty well preserved. It wasn't the miles on the clock that got him steamrolled by Cano. It was the same deficiencies that got him steamrolled by Thompson years ago, the same deficiencies that allowed Tony DeMarco to break him down. He's a stylish fighter, but lacking too significant a degree of technical substance and acuity for legitimate P4P consideration.


    Quote Originally Posted by NavigatorIsADumbBum View Post
    Maybe the Loma fight has taken loads out of him, maybe he's too small for light welterweight, or maybe he just started slow and got caught and can come back and anihilate Cano
    Do you think he's keen on a Cano rematch? We can give him a pass for the failure of a Salgado rematch to materialize (due to the Akihiko Honda situation), but he never seemed driven to chase sequels with DeMarco and Thompson. I'd tend to think this would be another he won't be inclined to pursue.



    Quote Originally Posted by NavigatorIsADumbBum View Post
    when you've been a pro for so long , sometimes after a tough fight fighters can suddenly look shot. I recall the Jamie Moore - Ryan Rhodes fight of the year as one example of many, Moore looked good that night but in his very next fight he was completely done and suddenly retired.
    This, generally speaking, is a good point. This does happen to guys. I'd be inclined to consider this a factor in the case of Cano-Linares if I hadn't seen Linares come up short in the same kind of areas while still smack dab in his prime. I just think this one is more a case of Linares gonna Linares.



    So, in summary, he's lost to guys that no boxer who is above-average at world level has any business losing to (and in summary fashion), while failing to add any clear, prime world class names to his W column. A decent fighter, but ultimately nothing special.


    Seeing as you mentioned him in the other thread, someone like Andriy Kotelnik (or, going back much further in time, Billy Graham) is much more the kind of guy I'd sit a kid in front of if I wanted to show him what a fine tradesman looks like in this sport. Athletically mediocre, perhaps, but tremendously sound fundamentally. Not that Kotelnik was an A fighter, or even a B+, but, as a comparison of B fighters goes, I'd much rather have been a Kotelnik than a Linares. Andriy was much more consistent, much more fundamental. Didn't pack much of a punch, but was able to get to grips with a bull like Maidana with savvy and acquired grit. Wasn't blessed with speed, but was able to negate the handspeed of Alexander with refined timing and solid basics (albeit in one of the biggest robberies ever seen on HBO). Can you imagine Linares facing the 130-135 equivalent of even a pre-Oxnard Chino? He would've been mangled.


    Quote Originally Posted by NavigatorIsADumbBum View Post
    I disagree I think he is greatly skilled and an excellent boxer.
    You're entitled to that. For my part, I should add that the tone of this thread was a little rhetorical and facetious in the first place – although I do stand by its general observations, I can certainly handle a disagreement.
    Last edited by navigator; 08-15-2019 at 11:15 PM.
    Reply With Quote  
     

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •